Sons Of Guilt / Discussion

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This is the discussion related to the wiki page Sons Of Guilt.

Kai4C 15 Jul 2021 10:55

Might wanna get rid of the copy-paste residue at the bottom, my dude

Doesn't feel like Eyes of Argos

Natedagreat563 15 Jul 2021 13:01

This feels written like it's an entirely new goi overall. It's very confusing to me whether or not they're a division of the eyes of Argos or a separate group they use to do their dirty work — which tbh the second does not sound very eyes of argos-y imo. Honestly, it was an ok read, but it didn't really subvert my expectations very much or bring too much new to the table. I feel like you could have done more to actually connect it to the eyes of Argos. You were also missing a rate module, added a fake tag (which I removed), and as Kai pointed out, you have that copied stuff at the end for some reason.

I have decided to read all GoiCon pages and give either a binary choice of upvote or downvote, and my decision here is a downvote.

Re: Doesn't feel like Eyes of Argos

Alkrolyd 15 Jul 2021 13:24

I'm sorry to hear you didn't like it. Personally, I probably should have tried to do some more research on the Eyes of Argos; I read through the page a few times but I didn't get it fully. I wasn't given much direction so I just went with what I could understand.

The copied stuff at the bottom of the page is automatic; I didn't put it there. Idk what the point of it is.

Kai's review: Feels like Eyes of Argos

Kai4C 18 Jul 2021 10:24

I actually disagree a little with Nate here. The Sons of Guilt are clearly listed as a Patrol on the Eyes of Argos GOI page, so the context is fine with me! Tonally, I think the article matches Vivamus’ page, it captures the formal and somewhat regal tone pretty well.

I do believe the SOG can be developed further. There is much room for improvement! I do hope you return to develop this page a little bit more.

1. Purpose and portrayal

I think the SOG as written here struggles with their sense of purpose — what exactly do they do?

Okay, each member begins their journey of 'redemption from sin' by entering the ranks of the SOG. But how do they atone for their sin, as a member of the SOG? Currently, as you've written it, it seems they only act to recruit more members into the SOG itself. That's… not wrong I guess, but it's not very satisfying thematically. 'I am redeemed from sin by getting other people to be redeemed from sin' sounds a little cyclic, and a bit too much like a pyramid scheme.

I think an idea for improving the 'Ultimate Purpose' would be to use it to portray the SOG as heroes who make restitution — to defend those they once hurt with their sin, and to punish the unrepentant.

For the first part of that statement… I understand a 'heroic' portrayal may be a little controversial, since the Eyes are a more ambivalent, lawful neutral-ish group. But I think that restitution fits nicely, since the Sons seem to lean towards good (being the only ones with a proper sense of mercy in the EoA). Making right what you did wrong is an important part of justice, not just punishing the wrong, and I think it would be good to make this a unique focus in how the SOG practices justice.

For the second part, about punishing the unrepentant… I think you need to be bolder with the theme of vengeance in the SOG. I think maybe that's why Nate feels that this page clashes with the general EoA — they are a bit too merciful. You can make them more aggressive and absolute — make punishing unrepentant evil people a part of their purpose. You could even say that if they don't repent, the SOG should send other patrols after them. Adding this more 'severe' trait amidst the more unique 'merciful' features of the SOG can link them more closely to the principles of the rest of the EoA, which would be more fitting.

As for the recruitment itself, why not have the SOG be the core recruiters for the entire EoA? It makes more sense to me, I think. That way, there's a reason to proselytize and gain followers from factions/individuals that have lower sin levels. Since they are more 'righteous', they don't really need to atone for guilt according to the SOG, but they can still fit in nicely in the other patrols.

As for high sin levels, making recruitment into the SOG mandatory is an interesting concept! I initially disagreed with it in principle, but as I thought about it, that 'forcible justice' is absolutely spot on with how the Eyes of Argos seems to function, which is good! I think you could improve this by stating very clearly that the SOG should take them down if they refuse. This ties in nicely to my point about making them more aggressive. I know this is hinted at in the security measures, but it's more of self-defence there, and it's not obvious enough. You should tweak the recruitment policy statement to be more ominous and show that they REALLY want these guys to pay, if they don't join to make things right. Like:

"See to it that high-level sinners never walk free. Should an individual be discovered to possess this level of sin, carry out an immediate test to determine their Guilt Level, and take the appropriate steps to attempt induction. Regardless of their Guilt Level, membership is never optional for these sinners. Should they remain unrepentant, we and all the loyal servants of Argos shall spare no effort to utterly destroy them, obliterating their sins once and for all. It is our job to ensure these wicked souls make penance for what they have done — by any means necessary."

You could also apply this to the moderate sin level. Maybe they aren't forced to join, but they have to 'make amends' for their bad behavior and the SOG will demand that they right their wrongs. If they refuse, perhaps they can be pressured to do so, or forcibly made to pay for their mistakes, but not with something so severe as a death penalty, reserved for high level sinners.

2. Make more direct links to the EoA.

I've talked about some of these already under 1, but here's some more!

You should link the EoA GOI page early in the article. Make it easy to navigate to and from the EoA GOI page, since they're closely linked.

You could replace the term 'individual' with 'watcher' in places, since it's the official 'one of us' term on the EoA page. Also take note that a 'level' should be termed a 'ground'. I think you missed one ("Entities and sinful organisations exist on many levels").

As mentioned, have the SOG be more forceful upon unrepentant sinners, and have them send other patrols after those who refuse to join or make penance.

As I mentioned above, have the proselytizing and recruitment be for the entire Eyes of Argos, not just the Sons of Guilt.

Perhaps talk a bit about Argos too. Maybe patronage and veneration of Argos is also part of the process of 'purging sin' according to the EoA?

3. SPaG fixes

- We believe that the one's sins cannot be purged without due service

- The initiate must recite the pledge of allegiance in order for successful induction into the Sons of Guilt. The pledge is as follows:

- I, initiate to of the Sons of Guilt,

- They must now resist the temptations and renounce the sins they once cherished in their previous life and the sins involved.

- The Purpose remains stands forever as a tale for the past monument to our history, and a prophecy for the our future. Those who deny the Ultimate Purpose are considered Sinners— of Guilt—, guilty of treason against our Patron Argos and against humanity.

- refusal to repeat them is a cause for concern, as the individual may be suffering a relapse.

- This process is similar to the Induction Ceremony, but far more strict and rigorous. If the false Son fails this re-initiation, a vote shall be held amongst the existing members. Members can may choose whether to expel them back into a place of sin, or to humanely execute the blasphemer to prevent their corruption from festering within the Backrooms.

- If the vote remains undecided, or a tie is met, then the individual must be jailed shall face imprisonment until further notice a decision is reached. It is important to note that this period cannot be last longer than three months, or else we will be forced to release the prisoner.

- Cowardice is a sign of restraint against an adversary of redemption, and a sign of relapse**.

I would certainly like to know more about Highmarshal Arcadia as an individual as well! I hope to see his POI page soon… perhaps have him on the MEG most wanted list as a 'cult leader' hehehe

As a Christian, exploration of the theme of Redemption really hits home for me. The Eyes of Argos haven't quite gotten it right, but it provides a real opportunity to discuss the concept of moral redemption, which is important to me. IMO, there's a glimmer of the Light in what the SOG do. More so than even the M.E.G. :)

My Personal rating
Content breadth: 7.5/10
Logic & idea development: 6/10
Structure & organization: 9/10
Tone & immersion: 7/10
SPaG: 6/10
Total score: 35.5/50

Seems like you’re quite new to this, so take my +1 for encouragement!! This isn't too bad for starters!

Last edited on 18 Jul 2021 10:24 by Kai4C Show more